Gas Prices

[Texan]

Glaveston, Wrong again. Maybe you should try to learn something about Texas' ports before you discuss them.

There are rigs in the gulf that have withstood the force of a Cat 5 hurricane, in fact I have yet to hear of a rig being destroyed by a hurricane. Come on think about it, why would we design buildings to withstand the force of hurricanes and not design rigs the same way.

 

[mindido]

Tex,

"Glaveston"? You do mean Galveston right? Well, not having lived in Texas for quite a few years, the only other port I know of would be Brownsville, but I don't think they have many, if any, refineries.

And again, man cannot currently design anything to withstand a direct hit from a Cat 5. I'm sure lots of stuff has survived glancing blows, but not much will survive a direct hit from a Cat 5. The last tech. report I read said that all rigs are designed to withstand a direct hit from a Cat 3, but a Cat 5, that would just be luck.

 

[Texan]

Port of Corpus Christi

 

[mindido]

Tex,

aaaahhhhh. As I said, haven't even been in Texas since the early 80's and, again, the ports are not the significant factor, the refineries are.

 

[Texan]

Tex,

aaaahhhhh. As I said, haven't even been in Texas since the early 80's and, again, the ports are not the significant factor, the refineries are.

Yup got those too, maybe you have heard of them, Citgo, Valero, etc.

 

[mindido]

Tex,

As Ice said a while back:

"And if it gets hit by a hurricane, the same will be true."

Citgo I'm familiar with (my dad actually used to work for them back in the late 50's and early 60's, but I've never heard of Valero.

 

[KABOOM]

Gas just shot up to $2.16 around here. Can only imagine what its like in California.

 

[mindido]

Ta Daaaaaaa,

All of you guys supporting the oil industry should be pretty excited about this. Oil hits $60 per barrel, new all time high!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050623...AeAsnsA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[mindido]

Boy,

Everyone supporting the oil industry must be absolutely giddy today, so much good news.

Its no longer a rumor, China has offered $18.5 billion for Unocal. The free market working exactly as it should.

 

[cableguy]

mindido, why, exactly, is supporting the oil industry a bad thing?? i say this, because no one has challenged you on it yet... i like my small engines, i like my cars, i like my electricity, i like my plastics, i like my roads, i like the roof over my head, and i like the myriad of other things produced by the petroleum/oil/lubricants/natural gas industry... i am quite certain you do as well... is this the unspeakable horror of "support" that you speak of?? why the venom??

most of all, i like capitalism... oil happens to be a product in high demand, that is unfortunately, due mostly to greenies, selling at an artificially high price... if you had a smidgin of true economics education (preferrably NOT something taught in most colleges), you would realize that the oil companies in capitalist countries would MUCH rather see a fair, untampered-with, market price for oil, which would--*GASP*--actually lead to LOWER consumer prices, and higher sales volume... this runs counter to every claim you have made regarding "big oil" and the war in iraq...

about the war... if this war was about oil, dont you think opec would have been broken by now?? do you honestly believe that the military might of the United States of America is incapable of literally conquering damn near every oilfield in existance?? this task would be childs play if humanitarian concerns were let go... until this happens, i will thank you to not use that irrational excuse for something you simply dont like...

as for unical, it would be a lovely day to own said stock...

 

[Iceberg]

How is gas being sold at an "artificially high price"? How is this so, when a gallon of water costs MORE than a gallon of gas? Water is far more a requirement for life than gas is, and yet is sold at a higher price. Now that's an injustice, I'll tell you!

 

[mindido]

cable,

"mindido, why, exactly, is supporting the oil industry a bad thing??"

Because our reliance on oil, especially imported oil, has a significant potential to destroy this economy. Our ecomomy DEPENDS on cheap oil, if oil isn't cheap, vast sections of this economy collapse.

"i like my small engines, i like my cars, i like my electricity, i like my plastics, i like my roads, i like the roof over my head, and i like the myriad of other things produced by the petroleum/oil/lubricants/natural gas industry... i am quite certain you do as well... is this the unspeakable horror of "support" that you speak of?? why the venom??"

You are correct in that I also like these things but I can see the writing on the wall. The longer we rely so heavily (I think we're importing about 68% of our oil now) on an energy source that comes primarily from areas of the world that really detests us, the more we are flirting with trouble. The sooner we get rid of a reliance on oil the sooner we can tell the arabs to drink their oil.

"oil happens to be a product in high demand, that is unfortunately, due mostly to greenies, selling at an artificially high price"

Due mostly to greenies? Cable, this is just plain stupid. Read virtually any article by any industry analyst. Current prices are driven by US, China and India's increasing consumption. Read something once in a while.

"if you had a smidgin of true economics education (preferrably NOT something taught in most colleges)"

Unfortunately, I do have a college education and am proud of it (2 semesters of econ required by the program I was in). I guess your lack of an education explains some of your wacky statements, "preferrably NOT something taught in most colleges". OK, where do economists get their education then? The School of Cable?

"you would realize that the oil companies in capitalist countries would MUCH rather see a fair, untampered-with, market price for oil, which would--*GASP*--actually lead to LOWER consumer prices, and higher sales volume..."

Oil producers and suppliers decided many years ago that the optimum price for a barrel of oil was between $20 to $23 (within the last week the same people are deciding if that price should be changed to between $30 to $35 per barrel). These are the ranges they believe are best for their profits and world ecomomies. I have followed this subject for years (since the early 70's) and KNOW what oil CAN DO to the economy. Remember the 1973 oil crisis? I do. People waiting in lines stretching for blocks just to get a few gallons of gas. If you don't remember that, just ask your parents, I'm sure they do.

"this runs counter to every claim you have made regarding "big oil" and the war in iraq... "

Only in whatever economic fairy tale you espouse. What is that by the way?

"about the war... if this war was about oil, dont you think opec would have been broken by now??"

I don't have a clue what this means. If you read virtually any article on current oil prices (as I mentioned in Post 51) , OPEC has virtually NOTHING to DO with the current price escalation. READ the article. Or, if you think that is some left wing BS, DO YOU OWN RESEARCH. Check BLOOMBERG, they're the oldest and most respected oil analyst, but there are hundreds more.

"the military might of the United States of America is incapable of literally conquering damn near every oilfield in existance??"

Of course they are capable of taking it, the question now is, can they HOLD it, and for how long?

 

[Supafly]

Don't know about you but I can go to my sink and get a gallon of water for about $.07.

If your familiar with commodities trading you'd know that the price of gas is set by traders, trades that hedge and also SPECULATE. Speculation is trading on a mere hunch or prediction.

You can't blame one specific factor or situation for gas prices. It's not India. It's not China. It's not the war. It's those three and about a million other reasons.

As far as the Unical situation, you boys have just entered my realm.

Companies buy other company, that’s the nature of capitalism. And to evoke protectionism, just because it's china and not a European country trying to buy Unical, is a shame.

And by the way in my opinion wasting an entire thread on whether a hurricane could wipe out a petro plant is just silly. Of coarse it could. And a meteor the size of Texas could fall from the sky and send the entire continent of North America plummeting into the ocean. But will it?

 

[mindido]

Supa,

"You can't blame one specific factor or situation for gas prices. It's not India. It's not China. It's not the war. It's those three and about a million other reasons."

Correct, no argument here. But the overriding factors affecting the current price spike are high demand in the US, China and India plus fear on the part of speculators of a supply interruption. OPEC has raised procuction twice in the last two weeks by about a million barrels per day and are now at virtual capacity. To blame OPEC for the current price spike is incorrect.

And Unical will be an interesting thing to watch. Will protectionism win out? I heard someone last night suggest that China is usually "cash and carry", meaning that they buy the company and then take it back to China. I also heard that they're promising not to do that but ????? Time will tell.

"And by the way in my opinion wasting an entire thread on whether a hurricane could wipe out a petro plant is just silly."

Here I disagree. Given the uncertainty in the world today, is it not best to "be prepared" for any eventuality?

"But will it?"

Of course, you said it yourself. Hurricane certainly much more likely than an asteroid but both will certainly happen. When? A Cat 5 hurricane making a direct hit on a heavily populated area is more likely all the time. An asteroid? Odds of that have to be very slim but we know it will happen eventually.

 

[Reverend James]

Those fucking oil dicks just bumped our gas prices to a cunt hair under $1.00/litre ($3.79/gallon to the Yanks). Fuck that shit... I am hitchhiking to work from now on.

 

[cableguy]

iceberg, quit buying water and use your faucet... BOTTLED water is more expensive... tapwater and streams/lakes/rivers/creeks/springs are far less expensive... remember, evian spelled backwards is naive...

gas is being sold at an artificially high price because crude oil produced by opec is being sold at an artificially high wholesale price... when a cartel controls production of most of the market, it can restrict supply (any time "increase production" is used, there is proof) and artificially inflate the price... also, a cartel can set their own price supports in place to further boost the price... bottom line, there are too few producers of crude oil producing far too much of the world market supply... this isnt rocket science, it is the most basic of economic principles... if the greenies would lay off, the US could produce all the oil needed to satisfy domestic demand, and export whatever remained... oh, and that would cause a tremendous hit to the price per barrel on the world market... end result, lower prices for gas, road construction and maintenance, all things plastic, roofing materials, and many, many other things...

the second factor in an artificially inflated gas price is taxes... bottom line, there is too much tax per gallon of gas in the US, and most, if not all, other nations make our tax look like a pittance... cut the tax to what is needed to maintain roads and bridges, and to build new infrastructure as needed, and gas suddenly becomes more affordable...

supa, great point about capitalism... props to you for getting it right...

mindido, if the US wanted to hold on to mideast oil fields, it COULD do so indefinitely... just a matter of keeping all of the people away from them... this is not difficult to do... fence the areas in, and put big skull and crossbones signs up, and simply kill anyone who crosses the fenceline... the US DOESNT do things that way, however, despite what you say...

i think you have a problem connecting the dots in your head... US reliance on foreign oil is a bad thing... i am with you there... the US does not have to be dependant on foreign oil... i am all for exploiting our own oil supply, but the greenies have other ideas... the answer is domestic oil, and waiting for something better (and profitable) to be dreamed up and put to practical application... your solution is to move away from oil altogether... capitalism runs on it, so that is an unrealistic view..

demand affects price... the forest you are failing to see is that when the initial price isnt a market price, and when supply is limited (both by fiat, rather than other causes), you simply cannot hold demand solely accountable for the price... what has happened is that someone has slapped shackles on the invisible hand... the market has NEVER set the price of oil under opec... opec has decreed what the price will be, and thats the price one payed, because opec was the supplier that could meet ones demands... the reason no one blames opec is because of sensitivity training and the ugly questions that would surface if that happened... things like "can America produce enough oil domestically to meet demand?" think outside the box...

the US, china, and india are using a lot of crude oil, but with supply limited by the major producers, and the US handcuffed by the enviros, there isnt an alternative presently.. your information is correct, but incomplete... oil is best for the oil companies AND world economies at $30-35/barrel?? i am perfectly willing to accept that... the question is, "why isnt it set there?" the answer is opec...

if you must know where much of my economic education comes from, i will refer you to adam smith, walter williams, thomas sowell, and f a hayek... try reading them... you WOULD learn things... the bias i have against college economics (and high school) is that a large dose of people like keanes is presented in a favorable light... keynes was wrong on damn near everything, and it is a disservice to teach his theories, unless you are teaching it as an example of how things DONT work... remember the political bent of most college profs... it affects course material...

 

[Supafly]

To blame OPEC for the current price spike is incorrect.

I'm pretty positive that I never blamed opec. Re-read what you quoted.

Given the uncertainty in the world today, is it not best to "be prepared" for any eventuality?

Of course, you said it yourself. Hurricane certainly much more likely than an asteroid but both will certainly happen.

That seems like more of a personal outlook on life. If you actually did try to prepare for "any eventuality", you wouldn't have much time for anything. I prefer to deal with things as they come, if they come.

Probability and certainty are not the same thing. I think your missing my point. Anything is possible. To think that you can prepare for every scenario in life is not only impossible but just plain ridiculous.

 

[Iceberg]

iceberg, quit buying water and use your faucet... BOTTLED water is more expensive... tapwater and streams/lakes/rivers/creeks/springs are far less expensive... remember, evian spelled backwards is naive...

I don't buy bottled water. However, others do, and they shouldn't be paying more for a litre of bottled water than they do for a litre of gas.

 

[mindido]

cable,

the only thing I can say about that whole mess is this. Your arguments would have validity IF oil was still priced at the $20 to $23 range. In fact, enviromental concerns, taxes, etc. are all factored into that price range.

What we are seeing today ($60 per barrel, about $40 above that range) has nothing to do with those factors. The $40 increase (from everything I have read in the last several months) is virtually entirely due to world wide demand (particularly Chine, India and the US) and fear on the part of speculators.

I realize it is probably popular to always blame OPEC (they certainly deserve it) but in this case, they don't seem to be the primary culprits.


Supa,

"I'm pretty positive that I never blamed opec. Re-read what you quoted."

Sorry Supa, that was not directed at you, that was cables statement.

"That seems like more of a personal outlook on life. If you actually did try to prepare for "any eventuality", you wouldn't have much time for anything. I prefer to deal with things as they come, if they come."

"be prepared" I was a boy scout many years ago and that is one of the first things they teach you. It is a personal outlook, shared by many, and prudent. Once you get used to it, it doesn't take that much time. And, of course, it doesn't always work but you do your best. And, of course, when it does work, you do get a pretty good sense of satisfaction.

"Probability and certainty are not the same thing. I think your missing my point. Anything is possible. To think that you can prepare for every scenario in life is not only impossible but just plain ridiculous."

Of course, but the better prepared you are.......

 

[cableguy]

iceberg, they dont have to, they choose to... and what is this "litre" thing you are referring to??

supa, i made the reference to opec, not you...

mindido, the problem with your assertion, and much of what has been written, is that it assumes a free market starting point, something that is false... opec sets production numbers, and it sets prices... opec is an artificial influence on the price of crude... if the US started harvesting its oil at a rate which we are able to, it would likely increase supply by more than 1/4 worldwide... in any case, it would eliminate totally, the need to import a single drop... more supply, lower price... there simply isnt enough oil on the market now, due to artificial restrictions placed by opec directly, and enviros indirectly, to meet much of any demand... ergo, the price is way inflated...

dang, has some semblance of civility been restored to this thread??? it would be nice...