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Environmental Issues

cableguy

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i am SO on board with that notion, duke... except i still dont believe there is a problem... if they melt enough, ocean temps should fall, leading to a cooler global temp, which will lead to a refreeze... then the cycle starts over again...

i dont know why i bother, but here is another link to one of bergs famous "oil industry funded" scientific type things... naturally, EVERYTHING that doesnt fall under the rubrik of "global warming is an urgent problem caused by mankind" MUST be funded, promoted, and published by the evil oil companies...

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/

repeat after me: there can be correlation WITHOUT causation...

in this case, even the correlation is a tad sketchy...
 

Iceberg

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cableguy said:
except i still dont believe there is a problem... if they melt enough, ocean temps should fall, leading to a cooler global temp, which will lead to a refreeze... then the cycle starts over again...

That statement just shows ignorance of the science of this issue.

Despite the worldwide retreat of glaciers (in alpine and arctic/antarctic areas), the ocean is actually warming as well. If you knew something about the physics of oceanic processes (currents, upwelling/downwelling, etc.), then you wouldn't be making such silly statements.

Here is some info on glaciers:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=146

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=129

Here is some info on oceanic response to climate change:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=124

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/2004/ann/glob_jan-dec_pg.gif

A graph showing the rise of heat content in the oceans (despite the increase in glacial meltwater reaching the oceans):

http://www.realclimate.org/figure2_hansen05.jpg
 

cableguy

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since this whole thing is silly, why dont we all just walk away and agree to disagree??? i can go on with my life, and you can hide under a table waiting for the sky to fall...
 

mindido

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Cableguy,

Silly? I don't believe this discussion was meant to be silly at all. In fact, this discussion is serious, possibly deadly serious for future generations. And I think you have the roles reversed. We are not hiding, we're trying to get people to start thinking. To quit listening to the propaganda being spewed by certain parties whose only interest is their bottom line. Parties that have no interest in you or your succeeding generations other than keeping you manipulated so long as their agenda is met.

One of these days, hopefully, you'll wake up and realize how you've been manipulated and that it was a mistake to bury your head in the sand.
 
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cableguy

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see, i believe that the exact opposite of what you said is true... that you and iceberg are the ones being manipulated... with history as my witness, that would seem to be the case... who is pimping global warming as a life threatening problem??? anti-capitalists... environmentalism is the new communism, plain and simple...
 

mindido

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OK Cableguy,

What history would that be? This should be interesting. And "environmentalism is the new communism". Give me a break. Lets hear a bit about your version of history. I can't wait to tear this to shreads.
 

cableguy

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many scientific types who were preaching the evils of capitalism and the doom that was global cooling and a coming ice age back in the 60s and 70s are the same folks who now are worrying about global warming... there is a complete lack of consistancy, and the track record shows chicken little type behavior... these folks are not to be trusted... as for the rest of your request, reread the thread... it is all here... you and berg have chosen to not believe it... as i have chosen to reject your notion...
 

moxdevil

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Similar thing happened when all the Marxists jumped onto the Feminist bandwagon.
 

mindido

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Cableguy,

"many scientific types who were preaching the evils of capitalism"

Specify. Who exactly are you talking about here? Have any names, dates, places, etc.? I know lots of "scientific types" and virtually all of them abhor politics. They will only get involved if absolutely necessary. They would all much prefer to do their research than to have anything to do with politics.

"and the doom that was global cooling and a coming ice age back in the 60s and 70s are the same folks who now are worrying about global warming..."

Again, specify. Who are you talking about here? Cite specific names, articles, talks, papers. Quit spouting the same old Fox News tripe. Start using that brain. To your credit I do personally know a few scientists that you are speaking of. Back in the late 70's and mid 80's there was considerable discourse about what the data was telling us. But that was 30 years ago. Additional data gathered since then had changed their minds.

"there is a complete lack of consistancy"

I guess this statement shows how little you understand the scientific process. An idea is brought forth, people test the idea to see if its valid, papers are written based on their findings and presented to their peers, their peers debate and retest, and on and on. All scientists learn more from their failures than they do from their successes. Over time, the data will lead to the truth. Thats pretty much where we're at now.


"and the track record shows chicken little type behavior..."

Again, specify. Who are you talking about? Who, what, when, where, why? Do you remember the 5 W's? They were drilled into me in basic education.

"these folks are not to be trusted..."

What folks? Scientists? Are you nuts! Scientists, through their research, have provided you with virtually all of the things that you covet today. Environmental scientists? These are the people that tell you what the weather will be today and tomorrow, amongst a million other things that you use directly or indirectly everyday. And your problem is that your not only fighting enviro. scientists anymore. It's your doctors, engineers and thousands of scientists in many different fields. These people are not to be trusted? Man, what happened to you that you can't recognize how absurd a statement that is.

"as for the rest of your request, reread the thread... it is all here... you and berg have chosen to not believe it... as i have chosen to reject your notion..."

I have gone back through this thread several times and checked most of your references. When you try to find the truth in them, it is easy to see. They all lead back to the same place. People that want to continue the status quo and continue poisoning us and our grand children for a few bucks. If you want to support them, thats your business. I just think thats an irresponsible course of action, one that will lead your grand children to curse you and the rest of us.

And one last thing. Mox is right in a sense. All throughout history, when rulers feel threatened by what scientists are telling them, what is one of the first things the rulers do? Exactly what is happening today. The only step remaining is for all intellectuals to be rounded up and sent off to concentration camps. Don't believe me? Just do a little research on recent historic figures like Hitler and Stalin.

Don't be a fool Cableguy. You have a brain. Use it.
 
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cableguy

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mindido, ask yourself just one single question... "what if global warming is either a natural thing, or a false claim altogether?" drop your preconcieved notions, no matter how nobly they came to be, and just consider the question... now factor in all of the effects of all of the proposed "we must change these things now!" proposals to "fix" something that may not even be a problem... what will the effect be on the world economy?? human safety?? freedom?? do the world a favor and consider the question, and its attendant consequences if ignored...

as i have stated before, if this is truly a problem, one need not be a scientist to understand so... "save the planet" makes a wonderful sound byte, but i feel it is an ill concieved phrase brought by those who simply deny that good things might not be harmful... no proof of any sort that can be explained simply to the average human has been offered, but all consumers of fossil fuels, those who dont recycle, and those who commit the worst sin of all--being proud of being American--are readily and eagerly vilified by many who support your side of this argument...

you are absolutely correct in saying that things changed since the 60s in the argument over global temps... can you guarrantee that there wont be another change in 20 years or so because--oops--seems the global warming thing we were on was wrong too... things change, there are anomalies in nature, and this whole thing falls under the category of "needs a few thousand more years of study." there is no concrete link between correlative and causative here, and until there is, you are left with speculation... any 4 year old can do that...

kyoto is an economy killer, ethanol pollutes more and uses more net energy than regular gasoline, recycling anything that has no value is another net polluter... there is no oil shortage, and human nature dictates that when something better becomes feasable, it will be used... if left alone, IF this is an actual problem, IF this problem is caused by humans, this problem will correct itself through innovation... leave everyone alone, impose no new regulations, encourage private sector spending on research, and sit back and be amazed... time and again, history shows us this is the case... imagine someone in the 1800s in europe considering crossing the atlantic ocean... a long trip, measured in weeks... disease, storms, pirates, and other dangers were ever present on this long and arduous journey... today, a transatlantic flight takes 7-8 hours... innovation solves problems that exist, government fails to solve problems that dont...

your side has yet to make anything close to a compelling argument... once again, a single question... "what if global warming is either a natural thing, or a false claim altogether?"
 

Iceberg

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cableguy said:
mindido, ask yourself just one single question... "what if global warming is either a natural thing, or a false claim altogether?"

The current warming is neither. Those who say it is natural are, themselves, causing the climate (at least locally) to warm by releasing large volumes of hot air. Those who are saying it is a false claim are just fooling themselves.

Climatic change in the past has been a natural occurrence. Today, however, there is about a one in a trillion chance that it is at all natural. As I had said in previous posts, the climate was gradually cooling prior to the Industrial Revolution (c. 1850) when carbon dioxide levels started to rise at rates never seen before (this was found in air bubbles in ice cores in the Greenland ice cap and in Antarctica).

cableguy said:
now factor in all of the effects of all of the proposed "we must change these things now!" proposals to "fix" something that may not even be a problem... what will the effect be on the world economy?? human safety?? freedom?? do the world a favor and consider the question, and its attendant consequences if ignored...

The effect to the world economy would actually be beneficial, since it would create millions of new jobs in engineering and innovation with new low-emission technology being desired.

The effect on human safety would be by far to the most benefit, since the forecasted extreme weather increases in frequency and intensity would be reduced or halted. Coastal cities would be saved from being permanently flooded by higher sea levels and large cities' air quality would be improved, which would reduce the prevalence (which is very high today) of respiratory ailments.

The effect on freedom is something which the right does not understand. A safe and sound environment in which people can live would provide the most basic of freedoms, freedoms for which many millions (if not billions) do not have at the present time. A cleaner and safer environment will fashion goodwill from those of need to those with material wealth and would decrease the likelihood that Ahmed or Mohammed would join Al'Qaeda.

cableguy said:
no proof of any sort that can be explained simply to the average human has been offered, but all consumers of fossil fuels, those who dont recycle, and those who commit the worst sin of all--being proud of being American--are readily and eagerly vilified by many who support your side of this argument...

There your argument goes completely haywire. Many millions of proud Americans are, in fact, very concerned about global warming. (I don't think mindido is not one who is proud to be American.) Senator John McCain (a Republican and a proud veteran of the Vietnam War, for Pete's sake) is leading the charge to bring about a Kyoto-like treaty to the US where Americans can reduce the amount of greenhouse gas emissions they create. (The "Proud Americans" who are opposed to reductions of greenhouse gases are completely under the spell of propaganda like FOX News and NewsMax and have completely been suckered by the venom the Bush Administration spews out.)

cableguy said:
you are absolutely correct in saying that things changed since the 60s in the argument over global temps... can you guarrantee that there wont be another change in 20 years or so because--oops--seems the global warming thing we were on was wrong too... things change, there are anomalies in nature, and this whole thing falls under the category of "needs a few thousand more years of study." there is no concrete link between correlative and causative here, and until there is, you are left with speculation... any 4 year old can do that...

That is complete bullshit. I can, beyond a reasonable doubt (barring some volcanic apocalypse, Day After Tomorrow event, or meteorite armageddon), say that in 20 years, if the current course is followed, that the temperature will continue to rise. The tried and tested climate models are very confident of these results. (To interpolate the IPCC's estimates, in 20 years, the temperature should be between 0.3 and 0.6 C greater than they are today.)

cableguy said:
kyoto is an economy killer, ethanol pollutes more and uses more net energy than regular gasoline, recycling anything that has no value is another net polluter... there is no oil shortage, and human nature dictates that when something better becomes feasable, it will be used... if left alone, IF this is an actual problem, IF this problem is caused by humans, this problem will correct itself through innovation... leave everyone alone, impose no new regulations, encourage private sector spending on research, and sit back and be amazed... time and again, history shows us this is the case... imagine someone in the 1800s in europe considering crossing the atlantic ocean... a long trip, measured in weeks... disease, storms, pirates, and other dangers were ever present on this long and arduous journey... today, a transatlantic flight takes 7-8 hours... innovation solves problems that exist, government fails to solve problems that dont...

Again, bullshit. The private sector never changes anything that makes them gobs of money unless they get a swift kick in the arse from the government to get going. As for the oil shortage, you should read something on Hubbert's Peak before you can speak on this.
 

Texan

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This brief analysis was written by NCPA Senior Policy Analyst H. Sterling Burnett. http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba299.html

Introduction






In 1988, James Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies, testified before the Senate that based on computer models and temperature measurements he was "99 percent sure . . the [human caused] greenhouse effect has been detected and it is changing our climate now." His statement was widely covered by the media and brought the term "global warming" to the general public's attention for the first time. Many of his colleagues thought, and still think, that his announcement was premature at best and rash at worst. But critics received little attention in the rush to publicize this most apocalyptic of all environmental threats.


The Basis Of Global Warming Theory






Hansen and other proponents of the theory that humans are causing a dangerous change in the earth's climate base their belief on several sets of data (e.g., temperatures, greenhouse gas levels and climate phenomena). For example:

* Ground-level temperature measurements show the earth has warmed between 0.3 degrees and 0.6 degrees Celsius in the last century.

* Atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2), a primary greenhouse gas, has increased by approximately 30 percent in the last century and a half.

Using these facts to simulate atmospheric conditions in computerized climate models, some scientists infer that the earth's current warming is due to the increase in atmospheric CO2 caused primarily by the use of fossil fuels (oil, coal and gas). According to the models, absent a sharp and immediate reduction in the level of CO2 emissions, the earth will warm a further 0.8 degrees to 3.5 degrees Celsius over the next 100 years. Proponents of the models argue the earth's warming will cause such calamities as rising ocean levels from melting polar ice caps, increased hurricane activity and severe droughts.

Global warming theory rests on three cornerstones: climate models, scientific analyses of past and present climate data and trends, and the assertion that increases in greenhouse gases drive up global temperatures. However, recent scientific discoveries are chipping away at these cornerstones.


Eroding Cornerstone: Temperature Trends And Climate Models Match






The increase in the earth's surface temperature during the past 150 years is far less than the best climate models predicted.

Based on models, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicted in 1990 that if no further action were taken to curb greenhouse gas emissions, we could expect an increase in temperature between 4.5 degrees and 6.0 degrees Celsius by 2050. In 1996 a new IPCC prediction was for an increase of 0.8 degrees to 3.5 degrees Celsius by 2100 - less than half the warming in twice the time. A U.S. government survey of the global climate model literature conducted predicted even less warming - between 0.5 degrees and 2.0 degrees Celsius by 2100. (See figure) With every new report the range of warming falls, which implies that the early models on which the most catastrophic claims were based were crude predictors of global climate change.

As the models improve they show less and less warming - which is in line with actual temperature data - and a reduced likelihood of harmful environmental events. Yet even the improved climate models are flawed. When the models' past and present temperature estimates are compared to actual past and present temperature measurements, the models are off by more than a degree. If the models cannot describe past or present temperatures correctly, why should we base public policy decisions on their predictions of future temperatures?


Eroding Cornerstone: Natural Climate Change Takes Thousands Of Years






Environmentalists have argued that the slight surface warming of just over 1 degree Fahrenheit the earth has experienced since the mid-1800s must be the result of human activities, since natural temperature changes this substantial occur over hundreds or even thousands of years. But a study published in the October 2, 1998, issue of Science showed that around 12,500 years ago global temperature rose by more than 20 degrees Fahrenheit in approximately 50 years. This natural change was more than 10 times the "catastrophic" warming environmentalists claim humans are causing - and it occurred in half the time. The finding confirms that global climate can change dramatically within a very short period and can do so absent human influence.


Eroding Cornerstone: Increased CO2 Emissions, Primarily From The United States, Are Responsible For Current Surface Warming






Environmentalists also have argued that since the United States is the largest emitter of CO2, the greenhouse gas of primary concern, it should take the lead in reducing emissions of greenhouse gases. Unfortunately for their argument, it turns out that the U.S. is in fact a leading "air filter." According to an October 16, 1998, article in Science, North America removes more carbon (about 2 billion tons) from the atmosphere than it emits (1.5 billion tons) each year. One reason is the tremendous regrowth in the eastern U.S. of forests that act as carbon sinks, removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

Even more damaging to the environmentalists' argument is the fact that most of the warming over the last century occurred before 1940 - preceding the vast majority of human-caused carbon dioxide emissions worldwide. Global warming alarmists have been unable to explain this mismatch between warming theory and scientific data.

Two scientific papers published in March of this year may explain the mismatch quite well. In the March 11 issue of Nature, scientists report that contrary to the belief that both CO2 and global temperature have remained fairly constant during the last 11,000 years, global temperature has remained relatively stable (± 1 1/2 degrees Fahrenheit from the average), but CO2 levels have varied greatly.

In a March 12, 1999, paper in Science, a team of researchers concluded that when the earth shifts from glacial to warm periods, as it does every 100,000 years or so, temperature rise consistently precedes increased CO2 levels by between 400 and 1,000 years. This finding is at odds with global warming theory and the idea that increased levels of CO2 force climate temperatures upward, but it does correspond with reality. The earth came out of a "Little Ice Age" during the middle of the last century. During that time global temperature was about 1 degree cooler than at present. If the current research is correct, one could surmise that the temperature increase at the end of the Little Ice Age has, like previous warming, preceded an entirely natural increase in CO2. While human activities have probably contributed to the current CO2 increase, the link between that increase and warmer temperatures becomes more uncertain with each new scientific discovery.


Conclusion






James Hansen, whose 1988 pronouncements started the clamor for action to prevent global warming, wrote in the 1998 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that "the forcings that drive long-term climate change are not known with accuracy sufficient to define future climate change." So much for being sure.

While the theory of global warming still may be correct, new evidence chipping away at its cornerstones should preclude precipitous, costly and perhaps unnecessary government actions. Whether human-induced climate change is occurring and, if so, what response is appropriate are questions that merit further research.
 

Iceberg

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The NCPA is yet another of these oil-funded disinformation groups. The NCPA has received nearly $250,000 US from 1998 to 2003 from ExxonMobil for climate change skeptics' "research" which is in reality an obfuscation tactic of the American people. (i.e. the money was used solely to confuse ordinary people to get them to think climate change is not a problem, when in fact it is the biggest problem we are facing today and into the future.)

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=55 (Information on the NCPA.)

The Pentagon, for crying out loud, says that global warming is the biggest national security threat for the 21st Century. Not terrorism, but global warming. AND THIS IS THE PENTAGON!!!

http://www.ems.org/climate/pentagon_climate_change.html
 

mindido

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Jeez Iceberg,

Good job. Couldn't have said it better myself. But I do have a few comments.

"what if global warming is either a natural thing, or a false claim altogether?"

Ice cores, dendrochronology, etc., are really quite interesting. They allow us to go back much longer than human memory and records (several hundred thousand years). We have now sampled most all (if not all) of the glaciers in the world. What do they tell us? That the worlds climate in that time has cycled between hot and cold at fairly regular cycles interrupted periodically by short term anomalies (volcanoes, meteorites) but, at a specific time (the 1850's) this changed. Cause = industrial revolution Effect = global warming. Its really pretty simple. The cause and effect is now easily demonstrated in a lab or computer. When hundreds and thousands of scientists from around the globe can do the same experiment and come out with the same results, then that is a TRUTH. Whether you like it or not. We now have a fairly good idea of the earths history so the claims are not false.

"we must change these things now!"

The reason. In order to get things back in order we need to get started, we've dumped billions of tons of garbage into the air. Its going to take years and years before we can turn that around. By the way, nobody is saying that your SUV is going to be taken away tomorrow, that won't happen. It will be harder to buy one in the future and you will pay more for it (but thats happening anyway). This is the exact same thing that happened in the 70's. So whats the big deal. We lived through that and we'll live through this.

"what will the effect be on the world economy?? human safety?? freedom?? do the world a favor and consider the question, and its attendant consequences if ignored..."

Iceberg answered this well. The economy will expand but changed. Automakers will make vehicles that get 60 to 100 mpg. Who does that hurt? Certainly not the automakers or their employees. Insurance companies? Nope, can't see how it hurts them. Who does this hurt? Hhhmmmm. Who does this hurt? Hhmmmm. Wait! I think I see who it could hurt! Oil companies! Do I really care? Not a bit. But will they really be hurt? Somewhat but not that much since oil and petroleum products have uses that we can't even presently dream of. And they've already started investing in renewable energy sources.

Human safety?? How safe were those 3,000 people in the WTC. How safe are our soldiers in Iraq, Afganistan and elsewhere around the world protecting our oil interests? How safe are our regular citizens that feel the need to claim they are Canadian because they don't want to be known as Americans? Seems to me they're not very safe at all. I've asked this before and I'll ask it again, you never answered the question previously. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE NO LONGER NEEDED ANY MORE OIL THAN WE COULD PRODUCE HERE? Seems to me that the answer is we would be a whole heck of a lot safer.

Since the rest of your argument has no value whatsoever, I'll go with Ice.

Cableguy, why don't you say what you really mean. You don't care what happens to anyone but yourself. You don't care if the world goes to hell. Your grandchildren! Fuck them, they can take care of themselves! Thats what your really saying. Just admit it and move on. Quit wasting our intellectual resources with your dogma.
 

Iceberg

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Texan said:
The report is based on a natural event, and is presented as a Earth Climate Cycle.

Wrong. You seem to be as hoodwinked as the rest of them who watch FOX News and read the Washington Times and/or Wall Street Journal. If you would actually read a peer-reviewed scientific journal article about climate change, you would actually learn something about the science, rather than keeping spewing out Republican talking points.
 

Texan

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Iceberg said:
Wrong. You seem to be as hoodwinked as the rest of them who watch FOX News and read the Washington Times and/or Wall Street Journal. If you would actually read a peer-reviewed scientific journal article about climate change, you would actually learn something about the science, rather than keeping spewing out Republican talking points.

I read the report, maybe you should as well instead of pulling lines out of context.
 

Iceberg

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Texan, did you actually read the full report or just the brief? Here are two parts of the full report that you should have read:

Pentagon said:
It may lead to finger-pointing and blame, as the wealthier nations tend to use more energy and emit more greenhouse gasses such as CO2 into the atmosphere. Less important than the scientifically proven relationship between CO2 emissions and climate change is the perception that impacted nations have – and the actions they take.

Pentagon said:
It’s important to understand human impacts on the environment – both what’s done to accelerate and decelerate (or perhaps even reverse) the tendency toward climate change. Alternative fuels, greenhouse gas emission controls, and conservation efforts are worthwhile endeavors.

The Pentagon acknowledges the fact that increases in CO2 emissions due to human activity causes climatic change.
 

mindido

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Texan,

Do you really know how to read? I just did, took me about an hour, and the report projects what would happen to a specific natural process (the Atlantic Conveyor) if we basically do nothing and follow yours and Cable's advise. It speculates about the effects of an Atlantic Conveyor collapse, which has happened before and will happen again. The report documents that all of the processes are now in place for that to happen soon. That would be extremely alarming!

Get your glasses on and reread the report.
 
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Texan

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mindido said:
Texan,

Do you really know how to read? I just did, took me about an hour, and the report projects what would happen to a specific natural process (the Atlantic Conveyor) if we basically do nothing and follow yours and Cable's advise. It speculates about the effects of an Atlantic Conveyor collapse, which has happened before and will happen again. The report documents that all of the processes are now in place for that to happen soon. That would be extremely alarming!

Get your glasses on and reread the report.


What caused the previous collapse of the Atlantic Conveyor? It wasn't mankind. It must have been the alien turd.

James Hansen, whose 1988 pronouncements started the clamor for action to prevent global warming, wrote in the 1998 Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that "the forcings that drive long-term climate change are not known with accuracy sufficient to define future climate change." So much for being sure.
 
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