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Environmental Issues

mindido

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Texan,

"What caused the previous collapse of the Atlantic Conveyor?"

Natural processes caused the the eight known events. But it appears they took thousands of years to develop. Not 150.

And no one here said anything about being "sure". Surety in science is rare. The only people remaining that still cry about surety in global warming work for the oil and coal industries. If you would have read the Pentagon report you would see that even they have little doubt of its truth. And they are certainly known as a bastion of left wing thinking!
 

Duke E. Pyle

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That the worlds climate in that time has cycled between hot and cold at fairly regular cycles interrupted periodically by short term anomalies (volcanoes, meteorites) but, at a specific time (the 1850's) this changed. Cause = industrial revolution Effect = global warming. Its really pretty simple.

I was thinking...you gave the date 1850's. If the climate went from normal {before this time} to {changed after this time began} then that would either mean a very fragile climate or a shit-load of industry, which would also mean fragile anyway since the change can be recorded within a short time span, from zilch to change during the industrial revolution. <---IS THIS CORRECT? IF SO READ ON....If this time is correct then would you not expect the climate change to be more extreme in the current day 150 years later? I mean if it went from normal to changed during this period so quickly then shouldn't we be wearing protective gear by now instead of guessing that our kids, grand kids, mothers, dog spot just might have to wear them? Or could this be a natural process? No? Well like i said i was just thinking.
 

mindido

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Duke,

Let me see if I can explain this. One of the things that ice cores (I'll just stick with them for this argument but there are other methods) demonstrate is the amount of CO2 that was in the atmosphere in a particular place at a particular time. Cores have now been gathered from all over the world by many different scientists. Those cores have allowed scientists to now go back in time at least 750,000 years. Longer for some areas (arctic and antarctic) and shorter for others (primarily mountain glaciers). The quantity of CO2 (as well as other gases and particulates) anywhere along the cores length can be measured, which has been done. By gathering all of that data, from all over the world, from many different scientists, we can get a pretty good idea of what has happened in that time. With me so far?

OK. The cores show that atmospheric CO2 has remained fairly stable over time but periodically we see a large spike. Why? Initially the causes were not known but today, because of other scientists in other fields, we now have a good idea. I'm sure you remember only a few years ago when Mt. St. Helens exploded in Washington State. That was, from a geologic perspective, a small explosion. But that event can be precisely dated. As can eruptions from volcanoes around the world that are within human memory (Pompeii, Pinatubo, etc.) Those eruptions leave a distinct marker in the glacial record which we can now, but not 20 or 40 years ago, identify. Still with me?

OK. We now have a baseline of atmospheric CO2 for many years. But starting about the 1850's, a curious thing is seen. CO2 starts increasing at a rate that cannot be explained by natural occurances. Why? After looking at all of the different possibilities of why, the cause became clear. At that time man started building smokestacks. Smokestacks allow for escaping gases and particulates to reach portions of the atmosphere that, previously, could not be attained. As time goes on we add other things to the smokestacks: cars, tractors, trucks, etc. etc. Are we OK so far?

OK. All of these gases and particulates eventually fall back to earth and some of them fall onto glaciers and ice sheets where they are trapped, buried and become part of the atmospheric record. That record is what scientists are reading today. And that record is what allows scientists to define a particular date.

The "climate" was not changed in the 1850's. What was changed was the CO2 concentration, it began rising at a rate that could not be explained by natural processes. And what is worrisome to scientists (and now the Pentagon) is that CO2 concentrations are continuing to rise at a rate that "will" have effects on key natural (and man made) processes, such as the Atlantic Conveyor (there is a fairly good explanation of these in the Pentagon article).

As far as I know, CO2 has never been at 0 and never will be, it is natural for it to be in the environment at certain levels. The problem is that the concentrations of CO2 are increasing and that we can clearly now demonstrate where the concentrations are coming from, mans activities. This has now been demonstrated by experiments in the lab and computer programs that scientists from around the world can replicate. One thing you should remember about science is that just because a single scientist says something, that doesn't mean it is so. But when a whole lot of scientists from around the world start saying the same thing, then you had better listen.

" from zilch to change during the industrial revolution. <---IS THIS CORRECT?"

I hope that part of your question is answered.

"would you not expect the climate change to be more extreme in the current day 150 years later?"

No, not really. This is a gradual process, but accelerating. 150 years ago was the start of the industrial revolution. There were only a few industries with smokestack capabilities. Over time that increased to the point where virtually all of us that drive a car are contributing to the problem. Now, China (and other portions of the world) are modernizing and also contributing to the problem. The things you speak of,

"then shouldn't we be wearing protective gear"

will happen to successive generations unless we start to do something about it now. But protective gear is not really the main problem (you're thinking of increased UV radiation, which is related). The direct effects of global warming are much more problematic (read the Pentagon article for a very good explanation). Just a few: war, pestilence, disease, famine (sound familiar)?

Hope this helps and explains a few things. Let me know if this doesn't make sense.
 

Duke E. Pyle

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We have now sampled most all (if not all) of the glaciers in the world. What do they tell us? That the worlds climate in that time has cycled between hot and cold at fairly regular cycles interrupted periodically by short term anomalies (volcanoes, meteorites) but, at a specific time (the 1850's) this changed. Cause = industrial revolution Effect = global warming. Its really pretty simple.

The "climate" was not changed in the 1850's. What was changed was the CO2 concentration, it began rising at a rate that could not be explained by natural processes. And what is worrisome to scientists (and now the Pentagon) is that CO2 concentrations are continuing to rise at a rate that "will" have effects on key natural (and man made) processes, such as the Atlantic Conveyor (there is a fairly good explanation of these in the Pentagon article).

Here was my mixup, hell i don't know anymore :crazy: Carry on without me folks my head hurts.
 

Iceberg

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To clarify the CO2 concentrations bit, the "Keeling Curve" (named after Charles Keeling) showed the concentrations as measured by the Mauna Loa Observatory in Hawaii. Prior to c. 1850, the concentration was approximately 280 ppm (parts per million) and today it is about 380 ppm.

By using ice core measurements, scientists have been able to conclude that, in the last 750,000 years or so, that such a rate of CO2 increase has never happened before.

Due to this revelation, there is only one reason for the increase, human activities.

If you want to find something on the Keeling Curve, check out Google or Google Scholar at: http://www.google.com/scholar/.
 

mindido

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Hey Duke,

"Here was my mixup, hell i don't know anymore Carry on without me folks my head hurts."

Believe me you're not the only one. This is very possibly the most difficult problem ever faced by mankind. It is very complex. Involving people and sciences that would normally not be effected. But it is important. It is important that average people gain an understanding of this because doing nothing could (I'm not quite ready to say will) have dire consequences for our coming generations.

Duke, honest questions like yours I have no problem with, I welcome them and will do my best to try and answer. I'm sure Iceberg feels the same. What we have problems with is propaganda. And that is flying around here (and elsewhere) like a tornado. It is Cableguy and Texans last vestage. If you go back through the thread you'll see that when they get cornered or asked for specifics, they go into the tried and true mudslinging or obfuscation.

I, personally, have been studying this subject for a long time (almost 30 years). I remember the things scientists were saying would happen back then if this were true. They are. Hurricanes are more numerous and intense (I'd think twice about buying Florida real estate). Flooding, combined with the loss of wetlands, will get worse. Within the next 100 years of so, most of Florida and other low lying coastal areas will be under water. On and on.

All I'm asking is to use that noggin of yours. If you have children, then this discussion should be very important because the decisions we make today will effect them. Scrutinize closely the motives of those that say there is not a problem. If you dig only a little bit, you will find that their pocketbook, not yours, is their only motivation.
 

cableguy

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tex, duke, you are wrong, as am i... we are unwitting pawns in the global conspiracy headed by the BIG OIL companies, President Bush, and the ghost of colonel sanders... accept it, as i have... get rid of all of your internal combustion engines, your plastics, your petroleum distillates, lubricants, tires, and disconnect your homes from the power grid... you must do this NOW to SAVE THE PLANET!!! oh, and quit your jobs, too, because your employers are likely part of this cabal as well... third or fourth world life, that is the way to beat this thing...
 

mindido

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Cable,

You are a pawn. You defend a powerful industry that has no interest in you, other than keeping you in the fold for as long as they can so that they can make obscene amounts of money from us.

Bush? I lost most respect for him after what he did to John McCain in South Carolina in 2000. And I consider him to be an absolute scumbag for going after Kerry for his duty in Viet Nam. Why? I remember Viet Nam. I almost went there, I had lots of friends that did. If I would have had a slightly higher draft number I would have gone. G.W. Bush, through his father, was able to get into the National Guard, most of us couldn't. Our only options were a good draft number, Canada or Viet Nam. Don't talk to me about G.W. Bush, you don't have a clue.

Why do you really care if the internal combustion engine dies? It worked for a long time, it was a lot of fun (I've owned many and enjoyed most of them), but just like the steam engine, they've run their course. Plastics? They will continue for generations (if we last that long). I'm of the belief that using oil for gasoline is idiocy. Plastics, distillates, lubricants, etc., are what oil should be used for.

"disconnect your homes from the power grid"

Cableguy, you are either an idiot or unable to put two or more coherant thoughts together (I'm leaning towared idiocy). No one is talking about going back to the stone age. Only changing to energy sources that don't aggrevate the problem. What difference does it make to you where we get our energy from, as long as its there. Unless, of course, economic interests are a motivating factor.

The rest doesn't even deserve a response.
 

Texan

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http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050516/full/050516-10.html

Looks like Antartica is putting on weight.

Heres another source of CO2, underground coal fires. One fire can produce more CO2 in one year than all motor vehicles in North America and these things are burning everywhere. Roughly there are about 328.5 million people in North America, if only 30% are vehicle owners and produce on average 5.5 tons of CO2, that equates out to about 542 million tons of CO2 production.

http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/features/science/030310coalfire.html

It is easy to point a finger at what you think is the source of the problem, but that is just a guess, albeit an educated guess, but still a guess. I agree that mankind contributes to the CO2 content of the world, but we are not responsible for all CO2 found in the earths atmosphere, Mother Earth has a role as well.
 
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moxdevil

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Texan said:
Roughly there are about 328.5 billion people in North America
Breeding like fucking rabbits, what is it, a plot to take over the world through numbers ;)
 

cableguy

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somebody lacks the capability to detect obvious sarcasm... what evidence do you have that i am the pawn, and not yourself?? so far, its just a bunch of conspiracy theories based on hatred and jealousy... mindido, the world, just maybe, isnt out to get you...

tex, the rejoinder you will hear from mindido and iceberg is something like this: "but everywhere else is actually LOSING ice." to which, the correct response will be: "who cares??" nevertheless, big oil has made a pact with the devil to kill you... even ask them...

your bevy of scientists have much to gain from perpetuating this issue and calling it a crisis... mindido, iceberg, you are both excellent at researching things, and i lack the patience to do so on this topic... care to find how much money has been spent on research into this global warming thing?? take an educated guess how much will be spent if it turns out there is no problem... i am confident your answers will be billions if not trillions on the first question, and roughly nothing on the second... please do not try to tell me there is no reason to try to create a panic... the more worry and hysteria, the more money will flow...
 

Iceberg

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cableguy said:
what evidence do you have that i am the pawn, and not yourself?? so far, its just a bunch of conspiracy theories based on hatred and jealousy...

Baloney. It is a phenomenon based on thorough scientific review. There is no hate in the IPCC for America. There is only fact and scientific debate on what are the causes and effects of climate change.

cableguy said:
the more worry and hysteria, the more money will flow...

More baloney. There is about a million times more money flowing due to oil extraction than there is for scientific research on climate change. I'd also fathom to say that there is more money being flowed from oil companies to TV networks and other media in advertising and in disinformation campaigns than there is for scholarly (i.e. non-oil-funded) scientific research.
 

mindido

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Jeez Tex,

Do you actually read the articles or just the headline? Just a few quotes from the article:

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has reported that sea level is currently rising at about 1.8 millimetres per year, largely through melting of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets as a result of global warming. But the panel also expected that climate change would trigger an increase in snowfall over the Antarctic continent, as increased evaporation from the oceans puts more moisture into the air."

"This is a phenomenal piece of research, but it is what we expected, " comments David Vaughan, a glaciologist at the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, UK. "These effects have been predicted for a long time, it's just that no one has measured them before."

And from your coal article:

"But over the last few decades there has been a huge rise in the number of uncontrolled fires burning in the world's coal seams and waste dumps - because of humans."

And from your own words:

"I agree that mankind contributes to the CO2 content of the world, but we are not responsible for all CO2 found in the earths atmosphere, Mother Earth has a role as well."

As I believe I mentioned in post #183, CO2 has never been at 0 and never will be. Nobody is saying that mankind is responsible for "all" CO2. But we are now responsible for the vast majority.

Tex and/or Cable, have you actually read the Pentagon article yet? I'd like to hear a detailed analysis of how they are so incorrect.

Cable,

"what evidence do you have that i am the pawn"

The evidence is your responses. They're almost verbatim from the Fox News website.

"its just a bunch of conspiracy theories based on hatred and jealousy... mindido, the world, just maybe, isnt out to get you..."

I don't know what to say about this. Maniacal ramblings?

" to which, the correct response will be: "who cares??"

Precisely Cable, now you are finally being honest! I wish you would have been saying all along that you just don't care. The thing is, some of us do care. Some of us have friends and relatives that live in areas which will be affected by this. And all of us have descendants that will be effected.

"i lack the patience to do so on this topic..."

Again, finally some honesty. So why do you bother?
 

Texan

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mindido said:
Jeez Tex,

Do you actually read the articles or just the headline? Just a few quotes from the article:

"The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has reported that sea level is currently rising at about 1.8 millimetres per year, largely through melting of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets as a result of global warming. But the panel also expected that climate change would trigger an increase in snowfall over the Antarctic continent, as increased evaporation from the oceans puts more moisture into the air."

"This is a phenomenal piece of research, but it is what we expected, " comments David Vaughan, a glaciologist at the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, UK. "These effects have been predicted for a long time, it's just that no one has measured them before."
Now where does it say what is the cause of global warming. It doesnt. Is the earth warming, yeah sure, but it has more to do with the natural cycles of the earth than it does with humans

mindido said:
And from your own words:

"I agree that mankind contributes to the CO2 content of the world, but we are not responsible for all CO2 found in the earths atmosphere, Mother Earth has a role as well."

As I believe I mentioned in post #183, CO2 has never been at 0 and never will be. Nobody is saying that mankind is responsible for "all" CO2. But we are now responsible for the vast majority.

All reports I have read on the amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere present mankind as responsible for all CO2 emmitted into the atmosphere. The reports do not take into account the natural producers of CO2, it is these natural producers that represent your vast majority.

Come on guys quit putting faith in your "Rainmakers".
 

mindido

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Tex,

"Now where does it say what is the cause of global warming."

Does every report have to say the cause of global warming? Jeez, if that were so, they'd all be longer than this thread.

"All reports I have read on the amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere present mankind as responsible for all CO2"

This is completely asinine. NO credible scientist would ever make that assertion. They'd be laughed right out of the room! But since you bring it up, lets see at least one of those reports.
 

Iceberg

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Texan said:
All reports I have read on the amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere present mankind as responsible for all CO2 emmitted into the atmosphere. The reports do not take into account the natural producers of CO2, it is these natural producers that represent your vast majority.

The difference between CO2 concentration now (c. 380 ppm) and in 1850 (c. 280 ppm), which is roughly 100 ppm, is almost entirely due to human activities. No natural event in planetary history would have increased this concentration nearly that much in such a small timeframe.

If you look at the Vostok ice cores, you may see huge jumps in CO2. However, these jumps occur over much larger-scale timeframes and the mechanisms of this change take great lengths of time to set up. The mechanism today has taken a nanosecond relative to those in prehistoric times (i.e. several millennia before present).
 

Duke E. Pyle

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My headache's gone!! hehe No seriously i over heard a discussion about this today so i did a "very quick search" and found this.



CNN rehashes a story that's been out for months -- the "calving" of two TYPICALLY large bergs from the Ross Ice Shelf -- to make a case for GLOBAL warming. Problem is -- the calving of the ice shelf is related primarily to LOCAL summer temperature variation. The issue is iceberg "calving" in areas (Western Antarctica in particular) more exposed to warmer currents and vulnerable to regular volatility in temperatures. Were global warming to be driving this one would expect to find more ice shelf melting. In fact, just the opposite is happening according to a JPL scientist, who has found that the very same Ross Ice Shelf from which the new bergs were "calved" is THICKENING dramatically.

What this scientist has discovered is A. more snowfall than in recent years and B. that the Ross Ice Shelf is actually expanding about 450 meters per year. I also hear that global warming preachers have switched over from complaining about smog and pollution in the atmosphere since the air is now cleaner and there is less reflection of the sun because of this. CFC's have lost focus to C02, and this will soon be replaced by the next factor. Now This is what i've heard and read and not what i know. Do a google search if your interested in this. Since i'm only here to distribute amunition, then i musnt do it for you muahahaha! If scientists can disagree, lord knows citizens can.
 

Duke E. Pyle

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well i guess thats where all this came from. Posted after i heard this so i should've read.
 

Iceberg

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Duke E. Pyle said:
B. that the Ross Ice Shelf is actually expanding about 450 meters per year.

This does not matter because ice shelves are defined as areas of ice that are on top of oceans and make no difference in terms of sea levels. What also is omitted is how much thinner these ice shelves are. If the ice shelf expands by 450m per year in terms of area, the shelf may still thin by a few metres per year, which still results in an overall loss of ice to melting.

If an ice shelf expands, it may mean that a teleconnection pattern (such as El Nino or the North Atlantic Oscillation) are in a different phase, allowing for the increase. It is, therefore, likely only temporary. In the long run, these ice shelves, as well as the ice sheets on Antarctica and Greenland (which people in the Northern Hemisphere really have to worry about as it regards the conveyor system in the Atlantic that may result in the sudden "Little Ice Age II" which the Pentagon cited) will reduce as the planet warms.

(I may be a bit drunk right now, but I think this is still as true as it can be.)
 
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