Wrestling 2005

[nekkid]

Well the reason that I brought up the question is because almost unanimously the wrestling community believs that "If its on tv its a work". I was wondering if you guys think the screwjob was planned for ratings or for Bret Hart to be Vince's "spy" in wcw. It would be odd if after ten years that all three guys (Vince, HBK and Bret) haven't all come to the ring and said "gotcha" by now. So I take it everybody thinks what we saw was real?

 

[reiko_sawamura]

Well the reason that I brought up the question is because almost unanimously the wrestling community believs that "If its on tv its a work". I was wondering if you guys think the screwjob was planned for ratings or for Bret Hart to be Vince's "spy" in wcw. It would be odd if after ten years that all three guys (Vince, HBK and Bret) haven't all come to the ring and said "gotcha" by now. So I take it everybody thinks what we saw was real?

It was very real. Vince didn't want Bret showing up on WCW with the WWF title, so he screwed him over despite the fact that Bret basically told Vince he would drop the title anywhere else save for in Canada.

 

[nekkid]

Right. I realise that. Some people believe that is false. They believe that It was a work/ruse to get Bret to wcw as a spy for vince and the wwe. I just wanted to see if anyone believed that. I guess not.

 

[elmerfudd]

All I know is that after Bret Hearts Last match for WWF , that punch he gave McMahn was so-freaken-real . McMahon was even wobbly walking down the hall from Brets Dressing room.

 

[phynix]

In my opinion it was real but there is a lot of unaswered questions so who knows they may very well have been some talk of spying or whatever i guess we the public will never know the whole truth.

 

[nekkid]

What unanswered questions phynix? Do you mean things that are weird about the situation that might point toward it being fake?

 

[Stingray]

The only thing I've ever really questioned in all that mess was the depth of HBK's involvement. Most of the bad blood I heard/read about was coming from Bret's side throughout their feuding years, which leads one to believe Shawn's sincerety when he said he wasn't involved prior to the bell ringing. At the same time, he admits to being a pretty big asshole back in the day, so it's not much of a stretch to think maybe he was involved.

Either way, I don't particularly care. It'd be great if Hart could start talking about something and NOT turn it into a "the WWE treated me like shit" lecture, though.

 

[FlipStar]

From what I remember from Shawn's book (yes, I read it...read almost all of the WWE books, in fact...such a mark), he pretty much admits to being in on it. After the decision had been made by Vince and the ruling power structure. He claims he was just being a company man and following Vince's orders. He happened to agree with the reasons behind taking the belt off of Brett, too. So he's definitely not an innocent bystander in any of this. But when it comes down to it, he was being a company man for the WWE and didn't want to see Brett possibly show up on WCW tv with the title and drop it in the trash or anything like that. Vince didn't want any of the backlash to land upon Shawn or Hunter, so he told them to deny it in public and to the boys in the back and that he would take the heat for the decision. If I remember the book correctly, the Undertaker was the only one in whom Shawn confided that wasn't initially involved in the plot to take the belt off of Brett in Montreal. But that was only after Taker confronted Shawn about his involvement after the fact. Shawn had to sit down with him and explain in detail the reasons behind it and why he felt it was the only way to do business at the time. Taker agreed and subsequently left it alone.

 

[nekkid]

I haven't read shawn's book yet but I intend to (is it good?). Shawn openly admited that he knew of the screwjob before it happened for the first time on an old wwe show called confiential. He felt that he wanted to get it off his back and was sick of lying about it for all these years.

As for HHH, I just watched shawn's new dvd heartbreak and triumph (which I highly recomend by the way, especially the first dvd which has a lot of backstage footage and goes in depth about the kliq, and hbk's self destruction period in the late 90's) hunter admitted that he knew all along what was going to happen before the match, which was the first time hunter admitted it, to my knowledge. Its kind of weird that seeing them (hunter and shawn) flat out lie and sweare to God that they had no idea on "wrestling with shadows".

It seemed like a pretty bad situation for shawn. He was already disliked by many in the locker room, and that tough situation that he was in (which in my opinion wasn't his fault at all) made people dislike him even more for something he could really do nothing about. It also made it look like Shawn masterminded the whole thing since Bret and Shawn didn't get along.

Ok, this will be my last question for you guys on the subject.

WHo do you guys think is to blame for the whole thing? Do you take Vince's side? Bret's side and why?

 

[FlipStar]

IMO, Bret and Vince are both to blame.

Bret for being obstinate and unwilling to do business properly.

Vince for not talking to Bret rationally and automatically assuming he needed to screw him over in order to make sure business was done properly.

Bret had no right to demand when and where he lost the belt. IMO, he started believing his own hype.

If Vince hadn't taken such a hard-line stance, then I'm sure he could have worked something out with Bret. Also, if he couldn't have afforded that contract, he shouldn't have signed Bret to that deal to begin with. The whole "creative control" aspect that was written into wrestlers' contracts totally screwed up the industry. I enjoy the product, but I'm very cynical about it now.

 

[Stingray]

I'm in the green again.

IMO, Bret and Vince are both to blame.

Agreed...but I do have to nitpick one of your points

Bret had no right to demand when and where he lost the belt. IMO, he started believing his own hype.

This is an iffy one, imo. If we're to believe even half of Bret's part of the story, then he actually DID have some say in the matter due to the creative control clauses in his contract.

 

[nekkid]

Flipstar you should watch "wrestling with Shadows" Its an awesome documentary made by Bret Hart on the whole matter. It has live footage of the entire incident before and after the screwjob. You can watchin on youtube just type in "wrestling with shadows".

Vince did try to rationalize with Bret (they show it in the documentary). Bret said if the hitman lost in Canada his character would be finished. Bret refused to do the JOB.

You are right phynix, he did have creative control, but it was worded in a very broad manner "reasonable control over character direction" I think it was. That doesn not necessarily mean he can refuse to give up the belt on the last day of the contract. It wasn't the same type of creative control that Hulk Hogan had/has.

I am sure that you guys can tell that I take Vince's side. Bret didn't want to lose in Canada? He said in the documentary that "For the Hitman losing in Canada would be like blowing the Hitman's brains out". Ok, its not Max Schmelling losing in Germany, it's not the Russian Red army hockey team losing to the US in 1980, its f'n pro wrestling. Wrestlers lose in their home towns all the time: Cena, Flair, HBK.

Why did Bret want to hold on to the belt after his contract was finished? That waves a lot of red flags for me. Its a part of the wrestling business to pass the torch, and Bret didn't want to co-operate.

IMO, Bret is and always was a little crybaby. Losing in Canada, giving up the title the next night on RAW were just excuses because Bret hated Shawn in real life and didn't want to pass the torch to him.

The bottom line why I take Vince's side is because Vince was Bret's boss. Bret wrestled for Vince, Vince tells you if you are going to win or lose. In any line of work, even the wwf, if you don't do what your boss says you get fired. Vince didn't want things to end this way but they did end that way, because Vince had no other choice.

 

[FlipStar]

Oh, I definitely saw "Wrestling With Shadows". Great documentary, just haven't seen it in a while.

I totally agree, Nekkid. Vince just didn't want another Madusa/Alundra Blayze situation to unfold. Bischoff even admits that he was trying to convince Bret to bring the belt to Monday Nitro. He's never said exactly why he wanted him to do that, but it's pretty obvious that he would have thrown money at Bret to throw the WWF title into the trash live on Nitro. Bret needs to just let the whole situation go. I thought he might have by now, seeing as how he's in the WWE Hall of Fame, but I guess he's just too bitter and petty.

 

[nekkid]

It took a LONG time but I think that Bret has finally let it go. Just like you said he is in the hall of fame, and he also did a little promo for wwe on Mcmahon appreciation night in good fun on RAW. I also saw a shoot interview on youtube where he said that since his stroke he learned that he can't hold his anger in anymore.

Wow, when did Bischoff admit to trying to tell bret to throw the belt away on nitro? I didn't know that, that makes Mcmahon look that much smarter and not at fault. Was it in an interview or in his book? I would love to see that.

Now that I think about it, if what you are saying is true about Bischoff and Bret's plan, its hard for me to understand why Bret was so bitter.

Even the Montreal fans seemingly have let the whole thing go when they cheered Shawn in the dx reunion tour.

 

[FlipStar]

I think you might have misunderstood me a bit. Bischoff only alluded to it on the "Monday Night Wars" DVD and in his book. I believe in his book he said he was trying to get Bret to come to Nitro with the WWF title. He never actually said what he was going to do with the belt, but I think we can all take an educated guess.

 

[nekkid]

I figured that flpstar, unfortunately it was after I made the post.

Anyway, what do you guys think about this thursday having ecw and impact going head to head? Those two shows are close in the ratings. I know its nothing to get excited about, but it is the first kind of competition in like 7 years. The head-to-head would only be for one hour since ecw is only an hour long, but its still something.

Also do you guys think that tna or wwecw will do anything special to spike ratings like appearences, matches?

I think that tna would make a big deal out of it if they actually won the ratings match up. I actually like impact better than ecw for the most part. It might be interesting.

 

[FlipStar]

I don't know...ECW is almost unwatchable now. I agree with the general consensus in this discussion that ECW should be handled as a completely separate entity. Until then, I'm not that interested.

As for TNA, I can't stand listening to Mike Tenay. I've never enjoyed him on the microphone. Just hearing his voice reminds me of the slow, downward spiral that was the last year of WCW. TNA puts on some pretty good matches and all, but it still feels "minor league" to me. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[nekkid]

I totally agree. I also think Smackdown feels minor league to me. I don't know what it is exactly; maybe its the pink and blue backdrop they have when they interview wrestlers backstage that looks like the early 80's, the fact that it is taped, anything that ever happens as far as announcements 3 hour special programming or diva searches all happens on raw. The only think, honestly, that the only reason I watch smackdown is jbl.

But, yes tna has a long way to go no question. I would absolutely LOVE to ee Paul Heyman go to tna, even to just cut one shoot interview.

I have barely even read anything about the head to head programs this week.

 

[-KA-]

True, Even I think SD is now a second rate show. I miss the good old times in 2005-2006 when I think Smackdown was better than RAW. They won the Survivor Series match, Beat RAW superstars at RAW Event (Taboo Tuesday), won Royal Rumble (Rey Mysterio), Stole Wrestlemania (Orton vs Mysterio vs Angle), but now nothing, they move all great wrestlers form SD to RAW or ECW, move the crap to SD. They are slowly killing the show. And you're right JBL is the #1 reason to watch it. He is the best color commentator in All-Wrestling today.

 

[payable_on_death7]

As for TNA, I can't stand listening to Mike Tenay. I've never enjoyed him on the microphone. Just hearing his voice reminds me of the slow, downward spiral that was the last year of WCW. TNA puts on some pretty good matches and all, but it still feels "minor league" to me. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Tenay was good when WCW would trot him out for the Cruiserweight matches, but then he started appearing more and more, and we all learned that Less is More when it comes to Iron Mike. Though I'd rather have Mike commentate on his OWN than have to listen to "DID YOU JUST SEE THAT?!" Don West ever again.