Terror strikes London

[stu2906]

Throughout this week there have been furtherr bomb alets across the country. nottingham and Birmingham have been affected. on saturday evening more than 20,000 people were evacuated from the cities main entertainment area. Police were acting on "a real and significant" terrorist threat and several suspect packages were destroyed in controlled explosions.

Although this threat did not materialise the IRA targetted a similar area of Birmingham on a saturday night in 2001, luckily there were no serious casualties. Birmingham was also targetted in 1974 with the infamous Birmingham pub bombings which killed 21 people.

I think it is safe to say we are still on high alert over here, and not just in London.

UPDATE; Security services believe at least one and possibly all four bombers are dead and have carried out several controlled explosions on a car in Luton (as per Expos post). Additional police are patrolling the streets of the West Yorkshire area where the arrests were made to "protect all communities", from this i assume the arrests were made in an area with a high proportion of Muslims and Asians.

 

[moxdevil]

Have you heard this about the BBC? They are not to use the term 'terrorist' in connection to the bombers! It was on the radio last night. Plus it seems some are taking exception to them being called Muslims as well as their good buddies around the world, as this implies that they are representational of all Muslims. Obviously any person who decides to use that thing between their ears will come to the conclusion that the majority of Muslims are not like the extremists, but the last i heard these 'bombers' and their friends were all quoting the Qu'ran, all claim to be of the Islamic faith, and all funny enough when not spouting filth or murdering people were attending their local mosque. What the f**k are they if they are not Muslims?

This is truly taking the piss. PC culture going mad.

edit: http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/

 

[cableguy]

mox, that is what one refers to as a bias in the media... it sucks, doesnt it?? at least it is out in plain sight for all to see... hopefully your local law enforcement folks will find the 5th guy and any others who are associated with him, and any others similarly minded... these animals need to be killed or locked up forever...

 

[Iceberg]

The following article deals with the claims of bias of the BBC:

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/07/13/the_bbc_and_the_t_word.php

Also, there has been a bit of an opinion shift on the whole "War on Terror" as it relates to Iraq. Here are two other articles relating to this:

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/07/10/the_last_straw.php

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/07/08/changeofheart_watch.php

Also, a letter that I wrote to a few newspapers about the attacks and the response:

I have seen far too many letters (one letter is even enough to satisfy this) in relation to the recent terrorist attacks in London with the suggestion that “Britain had it coming.” These letter-writers state that, because of the British government’s support for the US and involvement in the Iraq war, the terrorists targeted London.

This argument could not be more wrong. These extremists know that most Britons did not support the operations in Iraq, but they still targeted innocent Britons. These attacks on London (as well as those previously in Madrid and in Bali) were not intended as an intimidation tactic to get these countries’ militaries out of Iraq. They are intended solely to frighten innocent people. The majority of citizens in Great Britain (as well as in Spain and Australia) do not agree with the war in Iraq, and yet they were targeted anyway, with hundreds left dead and thousands injured.

These attacks leave us with only one option: to build a great coalition of many nations to incarcerate or eliminate those who are affiliated with Al’Qaeda and other terrorist groups which target innocent people. There must now be a new wave of the "War on Terror" in which all nations participate (giving them all a say) and not just the US and a small supporting cast.

I know this sounds like a "Change of Heart," to which one of the articles above has drawn attention. It is because I have had a change of heart. It is a bit painful, but I don't think I'll be going back to where I was before.

I am now supportive of the Iraq War as long as it is for battling the insurgency, sealing off the borders (preventing Al'Qaeda insurgents from entering Iraq), and creating a state of lawful behaviour and good government in the country. I supported getting rid of Saddam in the first place and still maintain that Al'Qaeda had no provable association with Iraq (until now, that is).

As I had said in the letter, it is time for all nations to contribute to making Afghanistan and Iraq safe and secure, long before going after the next target. Once the two nations become functioning democracies (or to what their citizens prefer), then it can be time to change things in other nations for the better, weeding out terrorists and those who threaten the planet's security.

 

[Duke E. Pyle]

:eyebulge: Now just wait till you see that "everything" that you don't agree with isn't propaganda. Its gonna be like opening curtains in a haunted house!!

I don't understand the religion or know a whole lot about it, but it seems like a strong, smart, open minded muslim leader would emerge to try and change the hearts of terrorists. Or lack of. Sounds impossible, but unless otherwise, to me it looks like its here to stay and can only be slowed. Why are more "decent" muslims not condeming this shit!? Its their downfall, the terrorists could give a shit as long as there's money a leader and some gunpowder. Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Red Horse]

Duke, this is my take on why Muslims seem to go along with (or at least, not actively oppose) what's going on. Islam came into being circa the 7th to 8th century, hence it's been a religion for about 1300-1400 years. Christianity, in that same time frame, had just got through with the crusades (because it wasn't working) and had the Inquisition to root out (and kill) heretics, Jews, and basically anyone who even looked sideways at church doctrine. Witch hunts, for the most part, were still yet to come. (Religious) history repeating itself?

 

[Duke E. Pyle]

The culprit: http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2004600000-2005320508,00.html

 

[cableguy]

welcome aboard, iceberg... i hope that some of what our side has been saying makes some more sense to you now... this thing is horrific, and must be won by the side of freedom... and it will be...

red, islam is a religion based on a warrior culture... one reason there hasnt been a groundswell of public outrage among muslims is that according to their teachings, there is no need for outrage... in fact, there is cause for celebration.. celebration of the deaths of "infidels" in much of civilized society would be seen as unacceptable, hostile, and perhaps even threatening, which is why you havent seen it many places..

fundamentalists of this religion, who are willing to ACT on teachings in the koran, are the problem, and must be rooted out and killed... any who choose to replace them must also be killed... eventually, when this path is seen to lead to a quick death, with no signs of success along the way, and with a growing prosperity in free countries, life might be come a more valued commodity... freedom and prosperity are the best things to PREVENT otherwise good people from becoming terrorists... bombs and bullets are the best way to fight existing terrorists...

 

[CBELL]

I have posted this a few places but thought I would add it to this thread as well. It seems there are a few people who wish to learn more about Islam and the Muslin culture and these may help. These are some of the books I have read on thetopics related to what is going on in the Middle East and things connected to it.

The Last Great Revolution by Robin Wright-talks about the transformation of Iran since 1978

Between Memory and Desire by R. Stephen Humphreys-Talks about Islam in the Middle East including the significance and various meanings of jihad, the role of women, and other things on how they effect the political system

Blowback by Chalmers Johnson-The Costs and Consequences of an American Empire

Lethal Arrogance by Llyod Dumas- Talks about the effects of being King of the Hill internationally

War in Time of Peace by David Halberstam-Talks about US foreign policy during the 90s

Islam by Karen Armstrong-A 411 account of Islam by one of the foremost writers on the subject

Zoya's Story by John Follain and Rita Cristofari- An Afghan women's struggle in Afghanistan with gruesome accounts of the torture peasants faced

Soldier's of God by Robert Kaplan-Talks about Islamic warriors in Afghanistan and Pakistan

Jihad by Ahmed Rashid- Talks about the rise of Islam in the former Soviet Republics and its future effect

American Jihad by Steven Emerson- A frightening account of terrorist cells in America and basically everything you want to know about them

Jihad:The Trail of Political Islam by Giles Kepel- Basically an account of the history of jihad

Inside Iran: Women's Lives by Jane Howard- talks about the lives of women in Iran in current times and how it appears they are better off than when the Shah was in power

Theater of War by Lewis Lapham- Questions Bush's efforts and motives on his crusade to rid the Earth of evildoers

The Age of Sacred Terror by Daniel Benjamin and Steve Simon- excellent book on the history and future of jihad against america by former directors of the National Security Council

The Saudis by (I don't remember)- An account of a women's escapades in Saudi Arabia very telling of the government and attitude within Saudi Arabia

Sleeping with the Devil by Robert Baer- Another excellent book that talks about the relationship between the US and Saudi government and oil

Terror and Liberalism by (I don't remember)- Talks about how to address terrorism in a liberal way


A couple of other books that I have read which are interesting:

The Lexus and the Olive Tree by Thomas Friedman-A book about globalization. Great read that helps you to understand what globalization is and how it affects the world. Information is a little dated though.

Them by Jon Ronson-A story about a guy that infiltrates all of these various crazy organizations and is able to live with them and he compares them to the real world. Basically he concludes that these groups aren't as crazy as they are made out to be. Some very weird groups too.

Almost all of these books are very good reads with some that are must reads. The must reads I would say are Sleeping with the Devil and The Age of Sacred Terror. Obviously these books have agendas so that is why it is important to read lots so you don't fall into one view without reading a counter arguement. These books have the effect that by the end you are believing everything the author is saying so watch out.


A problem I have had with books started after 9/11 is that it seems the authors targeted the subject area because they knew it would be financially lucrative rather than having more of a love for the subject that I got from books started prior to 9/11. Which is why I tend to be much more skeptical of them.

 

[cableguy]

cbell, good thoughts, and though i agree somewhat that post-9/11 islam books may have been written and published for a quick and easy sell, that doesnt mean there is nothing to learn from them...

author for "the saudis" is sandra mackey
author for "terror and liberalism" is paul berman

just filling in info there, not any kind of endorsement...

some more recent titles, also not endorsed...

Eurabia by Bat Ye'or
The Myth of Islamic Tolerance by Robert Spencer, ed.
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) by Robert Spencer
Radical Islam's Rules by Paul Marshall, ed.
The Sword of the Prophet by Trifkovic, Serge
The Great Divide by Schmidt, Alvin J.
Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West by Spencer, Robert
Perfect Soldiers by Terry McDermott
The Religions Next Door by Olasky, Marvin
The Life and Religion of Mohammed by Menezes, J.L.


lies and deception are tactics called for in the promotion of islam and the attendant destruction of all non-muslims... this leads us down a rather difficult road... whereas i am rather certain there are any number of muslims who want peace and prosperity, how can one seperate them from those who are a threat to that same peace and prosperity, as well as freedom... the bad ones dont exactly wear uniforms or speak honestly about their beliefs and goals... if the rest of the world is to ever trust islam, there must be a massive and public outcry against terrorist activities, accompanied by some action to prevent and curtail the same... until such time, no one should be looked down on for casting a suspicious eye in the general direction of islam, and sadly, of muslims as well...

all the talk in the world is useless if not followed by action... in this case, even the talk has been scarce... most of what is reported as having come from some mullah or other is promoting and defending terrorism, not condemning it...

there is a new school of thought that religion, though attendant, is not a primary reason behind whatever motivates these murderers of innocents... perhaps this will emerge as true, perhaps not... i would rather not have to go to war against an entire religion, but at the same time, that religion should do something to show it is not backing such acts...

 

[Red Horse]

cable,
My point was that they're still in what would be called medieval stages of their religion...Christianity went through it for another three hundred years until their flock said "Enough!" The real problem here, as I see it is that they have a lot more firepower than bows or muskets (duh!, no kidding!...just thought I'd beat you to it )...It all comes down to the followers not being intimidated by the leaders, and indoctrination is a very hard thing to overcome.

 

[Duke E. Pyle]

Since the recent attacks, the internet has been rushed by a new breed of pictures. They're all over the place and even stories of them are featured on the news. I'm quite impressed.

 

[Iceberg]

welcome aboard, iceberg... i hope that some of what our side has been saying makes some more sense to you now... this thing is horrific, and must be won by the side of freedom... and it will be...

I'm not entirely on your side on the Iraq issue, cable. I still believe it was wrong to invade the nation in the first place. However, I approved of Tony Blair's noble cause of removing Saddam from his murderous reign, a cause Bush failed to champion until several weeks or months after Blair had initially mentioned that as one of his goals. Bush was only mentioning information that turned out to be false (WMDs, links to Al'Qaeda, and Saddam's purchase of nukes from Niger).

Many nations, including Britain, Canada, Germany, France, etc., have agreed that there should be a clause in international law which deals with despotic and murderous/genocidal dictators that allows foreign forces to invade a country to remove this threat to human rights. I believe this is a very noble cause.

I can agree with you in that terrorism is horrific and that the war must be won by those who do not commit these barbaric acts. I have no idea when this war will be over. It may (and likely will) never be over. However, those who use terrorism as their method of choice hopefully will be rendered nearly powerless (financially and personnel-wise) so they have far fewer opportunities to murder innocent people.

One thing that should be done is what the British government is attempting to pass. They are pushing a bill to prohibit vocal and written support for terrorists, for example, those in mosques praising the 7/7 London attacks and those who call for Jihad.

All nations (even far-too-tolerant Netherlands) should pass such bills. This does not restrict religious freedoms, since terrorism goes against all religious doctrines (no matter if Christian, Muslim, Judaism, Buddhism, Sihkism, Hinduism, etc). In this way, those who espouse terrorism will all be incarcerated and prevented from performing such barbarism.

 

[cableguy]

berg, it was uranium ore from nigeria, not nukes themselves... that info came from the UK, and as yet has not been retracted... there may well be some truth to it... President Bush has never linked saddams iraq to 9/11, but there are plenty of links between saddams iraq and terrorism, INCLUDING al quaeda (just not regarding 9/11)... wmds are being found in small bits here and there... what hasnt been found are massive stockpiles... these would have been terribly easy to hide or export to a friendly neighbor (syria or iran come to mind)...

are you positive islam is a religion that must, because of doctrine, condemn terrorism?? where have all the condemnations been?? what about the koran teaching the "faithful" to use lies and deceit to further the cause?? fundamentally, the only rule that applies to islam is "whatever is good for islam is proper and correct.." this includes blowing up babies, apparently...

i am not in favor of any laws condemning verbal or written support of terrorist groups or acts... first, a law here in the USA would be illegal, and as a matter of principle, i think it better these folks stay out in the open where they are easily known and observed... people that support terrorists verbally or in writing should be aware that there may be consequences for doing so...

 

[stu2906]

7/7 one year on.

Lest we forget.

 

[crownedking]

21 arrested in terror plot

The plan involved airline passengers hiding masked explosives in carryon luggage, the official said. “They were not yet sitting on an airplane,” but were very close to traveling, the official said, calling the plot “the real deal.”
— The plan called for the flights to be blown up in-flight almost simultaneously, close enough so that flight controllers would not be able to ground planes, and far enough out in the Atlantic so that pilots would have no place to land.
— The attacks were planned for "up to 10 flights" on four airlines: Continental, United, American, and British Airways.
— The loss of life was planned to be "comparable to the death toll of 9/11,” meaning close to 3,000 dead.
— The official said that there is "very good reason to believe that this is al-Qaida.”